Does GOD exist ?

[Mr Brightside]

We all know that we are part of a galaxy called the Milky Way. This galaxy's centre is our Sun, which is the most important factor for life on Earth.

The wider Universe is infinite. Beyond all Man's knowledge. So let's all make up a God..........

Life evolved on earth over millions of years. Dinosaurs roamed the earth millions of years ago. Their bones have been found to prove it.

Why do Christians question that ? It's simple fact. Probably in the same way that they believe in the authenticity of the Turin Shroud maybe............another fake relic held by their clerics to brainwash people into believing in a fake God.

God has been a figment of humanity's imagination for years.

It's about time that all those believers accepted that we are part of a universe and it was totally co-incidental that life evolved on this earth, due to our proximity to the Sun. Our Sun gave this earth all that it needed for life to evolve.

In my opinion, believing in a God is a want. It's a way that we can grasp hope in the event of death. It's being scared of death.

That's my views.

Your views.........

[sinoy1]

This galaxy's centre is our Sun, which is the most important factor for life on Earth.

No its not....the center is a black hole :

The Galactic Center is the rotational center of the Milky Way galaxy. It is located about 7.6 kiloparsecs (24,800 LY) away from the Earth,[1] in the direction of the constellation Sagittarius, where the Milky Way appears brightest. There is a suspected supermassive black hole at the Galactic Center of the Milky Way.

Again one can argue that the earth itself being relatively close to the sun(in relation to other planets) is the main reason why we're alive along with the geology :

Another necessary factor in the evolution of life on Earth is the Earth's geological activity, such as volcanoes and lava flows. Although these can be very destructive, the heat they generate is important in keeping a planet warm. They also vent gases into the atmosphere other than those normally found, and deposit minerals on the Earth, enabling important chemical reactions to occur.

The wider Universe is infinite. Beyond all Man's knowledge.

Well if its beyond man's knowledge how do we know if its infinite .Firstly one must relate to the NASA findings that Space and time is finite and that we occured during one interval (how ever many billion years it took....or so the "scientists" say) to create this living enviroment.Meaning that Space is finite.

secondly another finding that Nasa did when they left some form of massive Mirror in space and looked out and after calculating it took 70 years to get the reflection of most galaxies that we can somehow view (really now if you think about it....the rest of the galaxies dont even come close to relation to ours....).As seen through the interstellar galaxy maps.....which is really massive and puts us in such a tiny little dot of a screen....thats the milky way galaxy by the way not earth.I would show you an image but I cant seem to find it.

Life evolved on earth over millions of years.

Agreed...but how man survived is a question of luck? or God's help?

Dinosaurs roamed the earth millions of years ago. Their bones have been found to prove it.

True and false.Bones have been fabricated by some.While others are real.You've got to watch out.you cant believe everything.

God has been a figment of humanity's imagination for years.

so you say.

It's about time that all those believers accepted that we are part of a universe and it was totally co-incidental that life evolved on this earth, due to our proximity to the Sun. Our Sun gave this earth all that it needed for life to evolve.

Again....who are you to say this?Why should we accept this?Why cant it be that God created an evolutionary species....Do you know the odds of this co-incidental survival rate?

Heck by the sounds of it you worship the sun.lets create a Sun god ....Ithink we're going backwards in time here .

In my opinion, believing in a God is a want

I agree.

It's a way that we can grasp hope in the event of death

Definately agree.

It's being scared of death.

True.Too true.

But you must understand...its not your place to say whether or not GOD exists or doesnt.If you're tired of it thats fine and dandy but to relate any and everything to the Sun goddess is kinda ametuer mate.There are alot of things that has gone right for this world...and quite possibly alot of things that have gone wrong *coughamericacough* kidding....But one must ask themselves If God really existed....and Has given us free will and would judge us when we die would he intervine,even after sending god knows how many prophets to kick us in the ass and tell us to shape up,and still have hope in man after we've failed him countless of times?

Also to further cast doubt :

On December 21, 2012 which coincides with the Winter Solstice and as the Sun sets west of Chichen-Itza, a pattern of shadow and light will project the Plumed Serpent (Quetzalcoatl) descending on the stairs of the pyramid that has a large head of a serpent sculpted in rock at the base. This occurs twice in Chichen Itza every year but on the Winter Solstice of December 21, 2012 something very special will happen. As the Sun sets in the early afternoon, the shadow of the pyramid's northwest edge will project a moving pattern of light that joins and illuminates the sculpted serpent head at the base of the stairway. Within a thirty-four minute period, the serpent, formed by this play of light and shadow will appear to descend to the earth, as the sun leaves each stair, going from the top to the bottom. This combined effect creates the visual appearance of the body of the serpent descending the pyramid. In addition, on December 21, 2012, the tail of the serpent projected up from the top of the pyramid will be pointing precisely to the star cluster Pleiades. The pyramids at Teotihuacán which means "City of the Gods", constructed by a Meso-American civilization just north of Mexico City that preceded the Mayas, are also aligned to the Pleiades as are the Egyptian pyramids at Giza. This is not all, on December 21, 2012 at around 11:11 universal time, there will be a precise alignment of our Sun with the Galactic center (Hunab Ku)

Heres the link : Strange Rumblings at the Center of our Galaxy

Good topic...but we mustnt step on toes mate.Lets keep it organized.

[cianl1]

I've already mentioned this on another thread but, I'm going to say it again just one last time on this thread and that will me the end of it...

I'm a Catholic; born, baptized and practicing (when I bother to go to church), but I'm also a scientist (student, undergrad leave me alone) and a Catholic living in the real world, and during the course of my life I've come across both theories of creation and evolution. The thing that strikes me about the people who support the respective individual theories is that, they are both idiots. I mean no offence to those who actually seem to have at least one cell between their ears but, and this is completely my opinion, choosing one over the other seems a little pathetic. The vast majority of creationists have no idea of what evolution entails, and the vast majority of darwinians don't want to know about creation. To both parties I say this: GENESIS IS NOT FACT! IT IS NOT SUPPOSED TO BE READ AS LITERAL!

Evolution is scientific fact, that is true but it offers no explination as to how life began. Evolution is dependent on the fact that life exists. Which is why I have spent a great deal of time pondering how exactly life came to be. Biochemical evidence shows we are nothing but elements arranged into specific shapes, so where did it come from? That is where I believe God comes in. The spark or the essence of life, is not something that we can synthesise. The human spirit or will or whatever you want to call it, has led mankind to accomplish extraordinary feats, when scientific evidence says we cannot possibly do those things.

Einstein, the most intelligent man in history, proclaimed himself a non-believer many many years ago and yet even he could accept that science could never refute the possiblity of the existance of God in whatever form he/she/it may take. He also realised the dependence the two have on each other. "Science without Religion is lame and Religion without Science is blind." Science provided advancement in technology and society and Religion balanced it by giving conscience and morality to know where to draw the line. Simple.

I have nothing against atheists, agnostics, humanists etc., but for me it is a point of keep it to yourself. I have never forced my beliefs upon anyone, anywhere, ever and should expect the same courtesy from everyone else. Wouldn't that be a nicer world? A world where everyone kept their own shit to themselves? Obviously I'm not saying clam up about your problems, it's important to put voice to those, but when it comes to getting up on a soapbox and announcing to anyone who will listen (which in reality is no one except for the people who were just about to do the same) "I AM AN ATHEIST, SO EVERYONE ELSE SHOULD BE TOO!" or the converse "I AM A CHRISTIAN SO EVERYONE SHOULD BE TOO!". Forget the past and look at the present. We have a chance to make the world peaceful in relation to faith and beliefs, so please...I ask from the bottom of my heart:

WILL YOU EVER SHUT THE HELL UP AND KEEP IT TO YOURSELVES?!

I am merely a man promoting peace, unity, advancement in knowledge and value for life. All life, be they Christian, Muslim, Atheist, Jew, Hindu, Buddhist, four-legged, plant, whatever... All it takes is a little respect for each other.

And with that, I take my leave having spent far too long writing this and not spending it on my chemistry assignment.

-Yours in peace, love and Christ,

Cian

P.S. To all those who say they don't believe in God anymore or ever did...don't worry, He believes in you.

[Mr Brightside]

Nice one cian.

Now, I'm a bit of a wild one for ruffling feathers on here, so I apologise for venting my beliefs on you and others, but I aimed to create a great debate from you all including anger, acknowledgement, confrontation and your own theories.

I am in a weird position whereby I think I have seen a ghost, and ghosts are supposedly our souls (?), giving the impression that there is a higher power out there. But I don't believe in God. I find that a bit weird when I think about it actually.

Now, I do believe that there was a Jesus Christ. I don't believe that he was the Son of God though.

Worship Centres, whatever they are, have a lot to answer for.

Now, of course I don't know what is and what is not true, but neither does anybody else on this planet. We merely inhabit this place because, IMO, our Sun and our proximity to it, allowed us to evolve.

Like you say, you hate being preached to. Well, so do I. And I cannot walk through the centre of Belfast without being accosted by supposed Christians every day of the week waving leaflets in my face about God and Christianity. Because they know best.....

Yet they don't do they? They just believe in a different perspective on things to me.

Science and the fantastic vastness of our universe fascinates me.

Like I say, I apologise if I offended you and I just put my points across to promote debate, but I stand by all that I said.

[cianl1]

The thing for me is, by dogma God is infallible, fair enough, but man isn't. Man is very fallible and has got it into his head that the world needs to hear about or in fact cares what he says. God rules the universe and watches over us, grand. Man just annoys people with his opinions. Be they religious or anti-religious. No offence Brightside. Don't mean to offend anyone with this, just my opinions.

It's fine having a governing body for the Church at large but when it comes to saying that they know what's best for people then I'm just like: whatever.

I go to church, yes. I find it's important to top up the faith every so often but again I subscribe to Einstein's position. Religion AND Science working together in harmony.

Don't worry Brightside, no offence taken. Like yourself, I expected to come across some banter on a topic like this. I am merely thankfull that this has become a reasoned debate rather than die-hard creationists and darwinians at each others throats.

I think the two greatest mysteries to life are: 1) finding out how exactly life began (since I have a scientific mind, by nature I am of course naturally curious) and 2) finding someway for people to live in harmony.

This is why I am such a strong proponent of education in all forms. Be intelligent enough and know enough to make competent decisions throughout the course of your life. That is one of God's plans for us I think.

Peace

-Cian.

[jec1]

Originally Posted by Mr Brightside

Now, I do believe that there was a Jesus Christ. I don't believe that he was the Son of God though

What makes you think that?

I for one believe in a higher power but there are so many agnostics people in my workplace that I'm forced to tell them why I believe in GOD. Have I questioned his authority? Sure. I believe that everything happens for a reason and we live by the code of ethic.

For those non-believers, When we DIE.... Where do we parish? Do we reincarnate?

[Mr Brightside]

Originally Posted by jec1

What makes you think that?

I for one believe in a higher power but there are so many agnostics people in my workplace that I'm forced to tell them why I believe in GOD. Have I questioned his authority? Sure. I believe that everything happens for a reason and we live by the code of ethic.

For those non-believers, When we DIE.... Where do we parish? Do we reincarnate?

1. I simply believe that Jesus existed, and all the scriptures that were written about him were by authors of those times. During those times, fantasies were prevalent, witchcraft was fairly normal and people believed in all sorts of shit. I mean, turning wine to water and feeding 5,000 from some bread and fish........Come on !

In fact, and I don't mean to step on toes here, it is widely regarded that John The Baptist was more likely to be the Son Of God than Jesus.....but there isn't anything about him healing ill people etc etc.

In those days, belief in a higher power relaxed everybody because they knew they would be at peace after death, so it was the belief. As I said previously, it was a want because they were terrified of death. And I believe that that has rolled on to today.

2. Reincarnation is a subject that is believable to me. Not because of a God "sending you back out" but because I think that we all may have a soul that can do exactly that. Although I'm very sceptical about it.

To be honest, IMO, when you die, that's it. Good night Dick.

And who says we perish ?

Christianity ? Jews ? Muslims ?

And they would know wouldn't they............................

Just a further point........

I have known 2 guys, one of them being my brother (not the famous one), who got "saved" by God / Jesus and claimed at the time that it was the greatest feeling in the world. They lost all their friends because they made new friends through the church and didn't want to socialise with their old mates anymore.

It lasted about 1 year for each guy, then friendship with their REAL friends became evidently more important than serving their God.

So I would like to know how you can be "saved" one day and not the next. The answers I got from them were that they weren't really saved in the first place ! So do Christians just "think" that they are saved ?

And I actually know a former priest, who is now a great friend of mine. He still believes in his God, but he no longer attends chapel because he became dismayed at the church for his own reasons.

Complicated.........

[unitedfan]

I think evidence isn't all that relavent when discussing the existence of God(s), save in dismissing certain aspects; e.g. we can dismiss the notion that the bible was e-mailed to earth from heaven with the evidence I gave above. Personally, I can't fully accept the Catholic faith and resultantly, I can;t really accept any other Christian faiths. This is because Catholicism teaches that only Catholics go to heaven - non-believer equals evil bastard in God's eyes. I can not accept that there is a God with that narrow-minded a perception.

Islam and Judaism have similar outlooks, dead on the same actually (correct me if I'm wrong). In fact, mostreligions are. Now, other forms of Christianity are based on Catholicism; they are "catholocism for those who don't like Catholicism." It's still Catholicism, just watered down (some of them anyway). Religion used to be a wonderful political tool in Medieval times and before, when it could be used to make your laws divine, thereby affirming order. It could also be used as a valid excuse to start a war, or de-humanise your enemies. Very useful political tool actually.

Before that, religion would have been a way of explaining the world and the things around us. The parent tells the child an anecdote to make them understand (well, help them feel as though they understand) the answer to a question, when infact they have no answer. Likewise, the "wise man" (the philosopher, for example), could tell the people flustered by their own questions such a tale of Gods and Godesses to keep the questioners at bay. This is a quite plausible concept for the birth of religion, and in compliance with human nature, such an event could happen many times, all over the globe.

The other means for the birth of religion would be for an indication to actually have been made from God, or a God-like figure, e.g. aliens or anything else in that bracket. Something which would seem vastly superior indicating directly to the small masses that the superior being was watching them and whatnot. It is possible yes, but there'd be a struggle to believe that. If God introduces himself, why not keep in touch? Now that can easily be explained away, but any attempt to do that is unlikely to be a strong and solid argument.

That adds doubt. But then there is what is, in my opinion, the most solid argument in favour of God, or something along those lines, existing. For everything, there is a cause. Z is caused by Y, Y is caused b X . . . etc, etc. But then B is caused by A. What causes A? So the idea is that every cause is linked back to the uncaused cause. The eternal thing that nothing has caused. This is surely impossible. Why? Because our minds have never known anything that does not have an explanation - there is a reason/explanation/ cause for everything, and we have never encountered any uncaused cause. So to our minds, for there to be an uncaused cause would be impossible. But if it is possible, then that unmoved mover could be said to be the creator of all things: God.

That's quite an argument, but I've been pondering over another avenue. Why is there need for an uncaused cause? Surely it could all just go in a cycle? Z caused by Y . . . B caused by A and A caused by Z, to bring the circle right the way around. So yeah great, it is logically possible, and I'm sure with enough thought we could think of a practical scenario where the cycle-style-causes are in effect. But then the question is, where did the energy to cause come from? Surely there is something which would have started this chain, because it must have started from somewhere, the first piece to be moved must have been caused by something from above this cycle. And then that mover, must be unmoved, or link back to something which is unmoved. And uncaused cause, again. So logically, there can be no existence without an uncaused cause, an unmoved mover - a God, so to say.

But that doesn't really tell us anything about the uncaused cause, it just tells us there is one. We don't know, logically, if the uncaused cause is a being which is an intellegent and functioning life-form that exists physically, or a force that is "there," causing everything. Crucially, the cornerstone elements of God in almost all faiths; benevolence, omniscience and omnipotence, cannot be proven. Also, it says nowt about an afterlife, unless we can then determine that be have souls, in which case there could be at least as much as a loose and vague connection to some kind of existence after death.

Call it God, call it fate, call it luck. Logically, there must be an uncaused cause, something that starts everything off. There is a high chance that we will never find out any details about our uncaused cause, unless it's Jesus Christ or someone along those lines, who tells us so.

[Mr Brightside]

You're going on about the chicken and egg thing. Which came first ?

Which leads to: -

Have humans ALWAYS existed ?

When did time begin ? Has time ALWAYS existed ?

Where does the universe start and end ?

DOES GOD EXIST ?

Y'know, I don't think it would hurt "OUR LORD" to just make an appearance, tell everybody that he's the boss, and be done with it !!

Just cut the crap and let everybody know where we stand !!

I don't mean to be patronising, but you know what I mean..........

[unitedfan]

Not at all about the chicken and egg thing, you misunderstand completely if you really believe that's what I'm on about. I'm saying that logically, the energy to set life in motion must be eternal and with no begining and end, which is very much a God-like concept. It is logically impossible for us to exist without something eternal and uncaused setting all the causes of our existence in motion.

Obviously humans haven't always existed. We have evidence for that.

We don't know where time began, or if it always existed. However, if time is not eternal, then it must have been caused, and if it has always existed, then it is an uncaused cause, which supports the idea that an uncaused cause is possible, as it too would always have existed.

When the universe ends and starts isn't a hugely relevant question, assuming the universe has a start and an end, which scientists are fairly determined that it has, having already ran estimations on how it all ends.

Does god exist? Something god-like, at least in terms of alpha-omega does exist, according to logic. In terms of other god-like qualities, we can't answer without leaping for faith, which it is best to avoid doing for the sake of this argument.

Tell me, how is it logically possible for no God to have existed? What started everything?

[Mr Brightside]

Originally Posted by unitedfan

Tell me, how is it logically possible for no God to have existed? What started everything?

I believe that we exist simply because of our proximity to the sun. Everything is in place for life. Co-incidental that our planet evolved where it did.

And Gods don't seem real. The planets and matter in the universe are tangible. God isn't.

Tell me, why can't he or she or it make an appearance then ? Put everything to bed ?

[jec1]

Originally Posted by Mr Brightside

I believe that we exist simply because of our proximity to the sun. Everything is in place for life.

Hmm, Interesting

I see evidence that He truly exists when I see the sun come up in the morning.

Maybe God is the sun, and we're not doing enough research

[sinoy1]

Jec who the hell are you to force down his throat that God exists?Honestly man.If he wants to believe god doesnt exist then so be it.No need to be patronizing....twice now your posts are piss poor.


With regards to Brightside's post

And Gods don't seem real. The planets and matter in the universe are tangible. God isn't.

Ofcourse God isnt! Thats why he's God and you arent

Tell me, why can't he or she or it make an appearance then ? Put everything to bed ?

Hasnt he sent like a bajillion prophets?Christian's believe that Jesus is God so techinically for them God did come down?

Also theres a matter of Free will mate.God isnt going to spoon feed us everything.He loves us yes.But at the same time we've got to so called work for his love.When he tests us with deaths or trials you've got to stand up and say hey i know shit happens but i still believe in God and that isnt going to deter me.

We make our own fate mate.If not believing in God makes you sleep at night then so be it.I just hope that you make up for it by being a good person.Although Im not sure if thats a forgiveable offence But you dont care since you dont believe in the big man.